I'm not normally one to notice such things, but I thought the gender and race roles were crappily stereotypical. The two women in Apollo's life are a Madonna and a whore. The crime boss is a big, spiffily-dressed black dude. Battlestar is normally so awesome about not acknowledging stereotypes that this felt really, really jarring.

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Comparing modern BSG with the old one is a fascinating exercise in where our culture has gone. Gender issues are generally far better (with the exception of a few serious flubs), while racial issues are about the same, except for black/white racial issues, which are in many ways worse (not the lack of major black characters, compared to two major black characters in the old series - Boomer and Col Tigh).

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The new BSG is essentially a good show.

I loved the miniseries, and I can't watch the show. I've seen the last three episodes of season one, and the first few eps of season two. It plays like a d20 Modern/Future in which the characters have taken Soldier as a background, but just for the skill points and feats-- there's no notion that anything like a chain of command, military discipline, or a code of justice exists, that I've been able to see.

Be, from everything I've seen, I'm rooting for the Cylons, as they are literally the only not-contemptible characters I've seen-- and many of them are still quite sketchy. The human race as I've seen it in the series is literally too dumb to be allowed to live.

YMM(and apparently does)V.

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there's no notion that anything like a chain of command, military discipline, or a code of justice exists, that I've been able to see.

To a degree, I think that's the point. Ever since the first (utterly and amazingly brilliant) episode of the actual series "33", the Galactica has been a ship filled with shell-shocked, massively and perpetually overworked, PST victims. While clearly a bad idea in many ways, the fact that Adama runs the Galactica almost wholely on personal loyalty and personal ties works because that's something the crew can see and deal with, rather than the more abstract concept of having rank in and following the orders of a military that quite simply no longer exists.

Even once they took care of the fuel problem, this whole fleet exists on the exceptionally faint hope that they find a place to stay before their food or spare parts run out and they all die. Since neither food nor spare parts is likely to last more than a year (or maybe at the outside, two), so this is essentially a long, drawn-out, utterly insane short-term emergency. The old (and deeply wretched IMH) show was about people who fled disaster and had found at least a temporarily stable way to live (on the fleet). In this show, nothing is stable, everything is barely hanging together, and it's clear to everyone that things are going to totally fall apart unless something very like a miracle occurs in not that many months.

Yes, the Cylons are completely playing the humans, in large part because the Cylons have a plan and something resembling a central command, and the humans have nothing resembling the first and only the shreds of the second.

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The idea of a series about the descent of the wrecked human race into anarchy and madness just ins't something I have any interest in watching, and in at least what I saw, there was neither a force held together out of personal loyalty, nor a force held together out of a sense of duty, discipline, or honor. To me, watching this show is like watching a real time series on, say, the Andes plane crash cannibals. I see zero, or negative, value in it.

Before the execrable movie came out, a fan made a wonderful music video of clips from Firefly using the song "(I need a) Hero." That crystallized for me what I can't watch BSG. If I want to watch treason, idiocy, disaster, and doom, I can just turn on the news. If I want to watch a once-respecatlbe civilization descend into madness in the service of religious moronism, I can look around me. I don't go to science fiction for that. I'd like someone to root for, not an entire cast of characters whom I pray to see die.

Give me TOS any day of the week. Remind me that as shitty as things look, we're going to make it, so that we have the hope it takes to actually make a good future. Spare us, please dear GOD spare us, any more "creative" "innovations" of "original" "writers" who stand on the shoulders of giants but can't think of anything to do but piss on us from that great height (and I'm looking at you, Berman, Braga, and BSG team).

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The "snippet" is quite good, by the way. It uses, as they say, such language as men do speak, and she's clearly thought more about the show at this point than the "creative" team has. Good job.

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Funny, I had exactly the opposite reaction to the new BSG. I find TOS literally unwatchable today, precisely because it deals with virtually none of the emotional realities its grim premise should entail. BSG's creators have been smart to engage directly with the darker tone of the times they're working in -- showing a consistent gutsiness and creative seriousness that Berman and Braga could never muster, for all their abortive and half-arsed attempts to be occasionally "dark" -- and I thoroughly enjoy the flawed humanity of the characters precisely because it makes moments of accomplishment more meaningful when they occur, and brings home the awesome odds against them so much more clearly.

From where I'm setting, the hope it takes to actually make a good future doesn't rely on ignoring the flaws in human nature, and indeed it would be depressing -- a sign of profound imaginative poverty -- if SF had to hide from human shit in order to recognize human nobility. Insisting on optimism has always seemed to me to constrain and cheapen the dramatic horizons of SF; I don't go to science fiction to be reassured, but to be challenged. I don't need a steady diet of old-style action hours, particularly not in a time when the "(I Need a) Hero" impulse is playing a huge role in gutting today's Great Republic. So, I'm thankful for the innovations of original writers who aren't afraid to be accused of "pissing on" the more timid members of their audience. Good for them.

(Of course, what do I know? I also thought _Serenity_ was a decent film, for all its plot holes. But much as I loved Firefly -- and I did -- BSG so far strikes me as far better TV.)

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But much as I loved Firefly -- and I did -- BSG so far strikes me as far better TV.

I agree with you up to this point. I thought Firefly was some of the best SF ever to be on TV. While I think BSG is quite well-made, I think it's also considerably less interesting and well-done than Firefly. In part, this is my own anti-grim bias combined with the impressive lack of sympathetic characters. BSG is very well done, but I watch it in a somewhat detached fashion because the characters are both doomed and unable to see this fact - in large part because their situation is so dire and unrelenting that they have no time to consider what actually happening or how fully the Cylons are in control of the entire situation.

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Well, obviously the Hero of Canton was all kinds of television gold, and Joss Whedon has a unique gift for wryly deflating Stock SF Moments and for sparkling character interplay more generally. The reason I enjoyed Firefly so much was precisely that those things allowed me to overlook the patchwork, way-too-literal "Wild West in space" setting. I tend to rate BSG as better just because setting, interplay and tone all come together well and are all high-quality.

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TOS dealt regularly with grim realities, and serious ones that were daily fare for its original oaudience. Hope doesn't rely on ignoring human shit-- it simply concetrates on taking it on faith that somehow, there is a reason to go on. The tone of BSG, on the other hand has been, "life sucks, you're trapped in hell with a multitude of idiots, you might as well kill yourself." Why on god's earth or any other would I use precious seconds of my own lifetime to look at crap like that?

As for what's gutted the Republic, I suggest that it hasn't been the desire for a hero, i.e., viz, and to wit: the belief that virtuous action is worth taking, and that life is worth improving. It's been exactly the opposite: cynical criminals preying on morons, while snarky folk sit on the sideline and say, 'I told you so,' smirking at the darkness while blowing out others' candles.

From entertainment, I'd like to see someone with the guts to suggest inspiring folks to find a solution, not some "creative" twit who tells us that we're all so stupid that there's no reason to even try. And I lump BSG's team in with Berman and Braga, as "creative" airheads who squander material they don't understand, thinking that effects and cool graphics make up for having nothing to say.

As for liking "Serenity," I honestly can't help you-- but then, you've indicated that you enjoy seeing "creative" folks shit on a dream and destroy fine work, so it's no surprise that this movie is right up your alley.

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"TOS dealt regularly with grim realities, and serious ones that were daily fare for its original oaudience."

Yeah, I don't remember seeing anyone on TOS act like they were the last survivors of a massive holocaust of the human species. If dramatizing that to you seems like merely saying "life sucks" then, well... I think you'll find a certain amount of disagreement with others on the point. Most especially if you want to lump BSG's team in with Berman and Braga (something you apparently feel comfortable doing because you've had minimal exposure to the actual show).

"the belief that virtuous action is worth taking, and that life is worth improving." I haven't noted any particular absense of this from BSG -- thought I have noticed that _they've_ taken note of how complicated it can be to define "virtuous action," and that they've pitted their enemy against an epically powerful and cunning opponent. Can't see those as bad things; I certainly don't see them as "smirking at the darkness while blowing out others' candles."

But to each their own.

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"they've pitted their enemy against an epically powerful and cunning opponent."

S/b "they've pitted their protagonists against an epically powerful and cunning opponent."

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Yeah, I don't remember seeing anyone on TOS act like they were the last survivors of a massive holocaust of the human species

Really. It's only the plot of one of the most famous of TOS episodes ("Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"), wherefore I simply don't believe you actually ever watched or understood the show.

As for avoiding heroism and smirking at the darkness while blowing out others' candles. I wasn't acusing BSG of that. I was accusing you.

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"It's only the plot of one of the most famous of TOS episodes"

I was talking about BSG:TOS, not ST:TOS.

"I wasn't acusing BSG of that. I was accusing you."

Oh, I know, but don't worry. Since you have little means of knowing what I do or don't smirk at, I'm not about to lose any sleep over it.

Snark aside, I'm not dissing heroism per se; it's the (relatively) simplistic, square-jawed and uncomplicated hero that I'm glad to have a break from (and that constitutes one of the prime manipulative devices of the "crooks" you mentioned earlier). I approve of the BSG reboot for moving beyond that model... for having, for instance, good guys who actually have power struggles with one another in which everyone's motives are believable, and even laudable. Makes for good drama.

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I was talking about BSG:TOS

er, nice try at a save.

you have little means of knowing what I do or don't smirk at

Since you're doing it in public, it's actually quite clear.

everyone's motives are believable, and even laudable

This doesn't even pass the laugh test. In the four epsidoes I saw of the series I didn't see a single scene-- not one-- in which I could believe that human beings who weren't television characters would say the words they were saying, nor do the things they were doing. That has not inspired me to seek out any others.

And that's, again, why this show utterly fails for me.

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Let's clean up the formatting and log in...

I was talking about BSG:TOS

er, nice try at a save.

you have little means of knowing what I do or don't smirk at

Since you're doing it in public, it's actually quite clear.

everyone's motives are believable, and even laudable

This doesn't even pass the laugh test. In the four epsidoes I saw of the series I didn't see a single scene-- not one-- in which I could believe that human beings who weren't television characters would say the words they were saying, nor do the things they were doing. That has not inspired me to seek out any others.

And that's, again, why this show utterly fails for me.

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"er, nice try at a save."

You're telling me you thought ST:TOS had a grim premise that involved a holocaust of the entire human race? Don't be dense, now.

"Since you're doing it in public, it's actually quite clear."

Repeat it enough times and it might even become true! 'Tis the age of magical thinking, after all.

Oops, is that me "smirking at the darkness" again? Ah, well.

"In the four epsidoes I saw of the series I didn't see a single scene-- not one-- in which I could believe that human beings who weren't television characters would say the words they were saying, nor do the things they were doing."

Guess we weren't watching the same show, then. You'll have to forgive me, though, if your endorsement of one of ST:TOS' cheesier episodes leads me to take your assessments of realism with a grain of salt.

Anyway, it's okay for us to disagree and leave it at that, you know. The space-time continuum will not rupture. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find some small children and blow out their candles.

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While you may have a point that "scifi should be about escapism, not realism", um, your LJ icon is Morden. B5 came under the exact same type of controversies back in it's day (in comparison to ST), that BSG is now. The authors of B5 wanted a grittier, more realistic future to discuss real stories and not stand-alones in a utopia. I mean B5 isn't as gritty as BSG, but you're just talking about degrees at this point.

A lot of people want some realism, and want scifi to be established as a genre that isn't ONLY about escapism. I understand not everyone wants that, but saying "BSG is too dark for my tastes" is different from "BSG is too dark".

And again, B5: the story of chaos seducing the galaxy, Earth/America becoming 1984, and the rise of militarism everywhere, only to be repeated for at least the next thousand years, is really quite depressing.

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Oh, and the first protagonist was a war-trauma victim who had a death wish.

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There's one big distinction you're missing, though.
B5 played a struggle between light and dark, showed the light, showed the threat of the dark, played out that tension, ultimately showed the triumph of light, reminded us that the price of light was a vigilant struggle against darkness, and produced a final victory.
BSG has been: Dark, dark dark, dark, damn it's dark, it wouldn't be so dark if we weren't all so stupid, dark, dark, yep, still dark, hmm, shame it's so dark, dark, dark, dark, dark.

Next week, on an all new BSG: it gets.. darker!

B5 also delivered a few people capable of human-level thought, and more than a few who could actually speak. Sorry, this is a difference in kind, not just degree.

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One of the reasons I'm still watching BSG is the hope that it will become a more hopeful story, where the humans learn to understand the Cylons and either make piece or defeat them based upon this knowledge. However, I'm far from certain that they will manage this.

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One of the "hooks" of the show is definitely the whole "what is the whole Cylon plan about" and "are they beatable given the advantages they have" thing. It certainly seems possible that the humans might not manage a win at this point; that's not a bad thing, to me, since I don't want the conclusion to be foregone. I happen to like a little suspense about who might win, rather than relegating suspense to the realm of "how exactly are the good guys going to win and the bad guys going to get their comeuppance?"

There's a place for the passion play, of course. I don't mind watching the odd actioner in which we know most of what's going to happen from the setup and the line between good and evil is clear and uncomplicated. But that isn't my standard for what SF _should_ be and do; it _should_ be able to do more than that, and I certainly wouldn't want potential producers thinking that SF fans are all or mostly of khereva's mindset.

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I watched the first episode of the series and was blown away. Then I saw 2 or 3 more episodes and was badly disappointed for the following reasons.

1) The series operated on an emotional monotone of the ragged edge of despair. This bores me after awhile. Even in the worst of circumstances humans find things to laugh at.

2) The director seemed to have no concept of rhythm or pacing. There were no "throwaway" lines or scenes. Every scene, no matter how trivial was shot as though it were of life and death importance. In the end this results in all scenes feeling trivial.

3) The sexual dynamics in the episodes I saw were seriously creepy. It was if the only reason a female would be sexually interested in a male was because she was a cylon out to use him. This makes for an interesting episode but after three episodes, I was tired of it.

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3) The sexual dynamics in the episodes I saw were seriously creepy. It was if the only reason a female would be sexually interested in a male was because she was a cylon out to use him. This makes for an
interesting episode but after three episodes, I was tired of it.

While definitely not perfect, this problem became far better as the show went on.

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