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August 10th, 2007
 | 01:48 am - Gender, Presentation, and Social Reaction
Two of the more common stories told about social reactions to sex and gender is that men are almost always treated with more respect than women, and that women who act in a masculine fashion and men who act in a feminine fashion are regularly subject to all manner of negative social censure, including regular verbal attacks. I'm not saying that all of the above doesn't happen, but I think the reality of the situation is rather more complex. Much of the reason that I think this is that it in no way matches my own experience or the experiences of several people I've known.
I've dressed in a fairly femme fashion for decades, and even when wearing nail polish, jeweltone women's silk shirts, and lots of jewelry, I almost exclusively only get compliments, from both men and women, and from both young and older people. Similarly, before he transitioned, Daire regularly dressed and acted as an exceedingly butch woman, and  teaotter is almost stereotypically strong and competent "soft-butch" woman and both of them can easily command the respect of strangers. Oddly, both of them almost never experience the sorts of generalized disrespect &/or harassment by strangers that I've had reported to me by many women I've talked to.
I talked to teaotter about this a couple of days ago, and our mutual conclusion was that it ultimately had to do with expectations about social roles that had more to do with femme and butch than female and male. Essentially, I think that people who act butch are expected to command significant amounts of personal space, to be listened to when they talk, and to be generally viewed as competent and also capable of defending themselves. Conversely, femme people are viewed as less competent and are given less personal space and less space in a conversation. They are also ultimately viewed as subordinate, and that all of this is largely independent of the person's perceived sex. I've seen and experienced these expectations from both men and women and from a wide range of people. I'm quite comfortable in my generally subordinate role, just as both Becca and Daire are more comfortable being treated as powerful and competent and thus with us all is generally well.
So, why do so many people have so many problems – I think much of the answer ultimately comes down to assumption clash. When someone who appears to be femme (regardless of whether they appear to be male or female) attempts to command "too much" respect or act in a fashion that is seen as too aggressive, many people react negatively because their basic assumptions are being challenged and they react badly and often attempt to "put the person in their place" in some verbally or occasionally physically aggressive fashion. Similarly, when someone who appear to be butch acts subordinate, incompetent, or weak they are often mocked or attacked. I've seen this happen to assertive women who are dressed somewhat femme, as well as to men who are dressed femme but attempt to act stereotypically male, and I've also seen it happen to butch but socially incompetent men. Also, long ago, when I used to dress in a more commonly male fashion, I vividly remember a number of incidents of such assumption clash that ended badly for me. As soon as I started wearing, ruffle shirts, necklaces, and earrings, all that vanished.
Of course, even this isn't the entire story, since assumptions about someone's social gender role (femme or butch) are based upon appearance, and that in turn is a combination of dress, mannerisms, and physicality. I'm tall and the sort of skinny geeks who is generally taken to be weak and harmless, just as both Becca and Daire are large muscular people of well above average female height, so in all three cases the mixture of physicality, dress, and mannerisms match well and so strangers rarely feel threatened or confused. However, some people have bodies that appear delicate and femme or strong and butch despite having temperaments and senses of personal style that are very much at odds with social expectations about their appearance. This sort of discrepancy is inherently problematic, because clothing and mannerisms can do only so much to counteract assumptions based on someone's body.
As an only slightly-related side-note, assumption clash seems to be a general source of extreme social censure. Regardless of whether he was perceived as female or male, my friend Aaron reacts to social cues differently from almost everyone I've ever known and the social cues he gives off are no more typical. Until he studied acting and physical theater, where he learned a great deal of practical knowledge about normal social cues, he regularly had all manner of odd and not infrequently negative interactions with strangers.
In any case, since the evidence for all this is largely anecdotal, it could be utterly wrong, but it does seem to fit much of what I've observed, and I've never seen anyone discuss this particular point before.
Current Mood:  contemplative
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Sounds about right to me. I know various people (channelpenguin, for instance) who have never been discriminated against for being female, because nobody would dare... ![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/44630338/5195943) | | From: | antayla |
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| Date: | August 10th, 2007 03:51 pm (UTC) |
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That is a great icon. I think my overall presentation is rather neutral. I typically wear T shirts and jeans but skew somewhat feminine in the details, which is counter acted by my size and more aggressive demeanor. I feel like people respect me and take me seriously, with a few exceptions.
When dealing with service people, (cashiers, hair dressers, repair people) I tend to default to super polite mode, which seems to get less respect. The situation improves when I consciously turn it down. Also,I have significantly fewer problems standing than sitting, I imagine when sitting I look more normal sized, and consequently "feminine". I often feel like mechanics aren't taking me seriously, though I admit I know little about cars.
The worst is when I'm with a guy (obviously usually James.) I can not tell you how many times I've asked a question of a salesperson and they turn and address James with their reply, which really pisses me off as he's usually not really paying attention. If it's bad enough I'll explicitly state the question is about MY car/phone/computer/purchase and I'm the one they should be addressing.
So yeah, nothing gets me less respect than being with a male, which i guess automatically renders me more female. Your point on social cues is really an interesting one. One of my favorite students last year came to me at the beginning of the year with a very skewed idea of how other people interacted (volume, intonation, body language, invading personal space, etc) and he had a lot of trouble with other kids, including being mostly isolated from them. I heard through the teacher grapevine that this boy was "difficult," "challenging," "a pain," etc. I found him to be very an intelligent conversationalist and a real asset to class discussions. He had tons of specialized knowledge that he brought to discussions. Over the school year I watched him watch the other kids and teach himself how to fit in a bit better (not 100%, but he became sort of comfortably eccentric) and increase his social standing. It kind of reminded me, looking back, of the point in my life when I started making self-conscious decisions about who I was going to be.
One thing that is not mentioned: the sterotypical femme who never asserts herself, but gets what she wants (usually the person is female) through obvious hints, tears, and other manipulative tactics. This is still quite effective, even in today's world. However, this only works if the femme is also otherwise agreeable and has at least a modicum of prettiness. ![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/3742064/303965) | | From: | heron61 |
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| Date: | August 10th, 2007 06:32 pm (UTC) |
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Most definitely, that's someone who fits well into the femme image and knows how to use it. ![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/68614831/370741) | | From: | mmsword |
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| Date: | August 10th, 2007 12:31 pm (UTC) |
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Ah, biases and heuristics, we meet again. There's actually a whole branch of psychology dealing with issues like this, attempting to answer the question "Why do we react to people in this fashion?" We know that it happens, and happens for a good number of reasons, but we really don't know why people do this. Most aren't even aware that it's happening at the time. That's the scary thing about biases, really. They're systematic and autonomous. You don't need to think about it, it'll happen on its own. Some very sound insights there, though I'm sure that there are any number of people out there who'd take issue with any concession to gendered social expectations. | | From: | antayla |
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| Date: | August 10th, 2007 03:50 pm (UTC) |
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I think generally people would prefer that you adhere to their conception of you... including and beyond gender. We seem to have a great deal of societal cliches that help to form these conceptions. I think that you could actually expand this out past gender. There's this almost unseen vibrational thing that I've observed and an old friend of mine actually tested and confirmed. He was one of the first people in Baltimore to get a mohawk back in the late 70's/early 80's and, of course, had gotten a few looks here and there with it but nothing overtly hostile or anything. As a test, he shaved off his mohawk and walked through the mall with a nice three piece suit, expecting that everyone would just generally ignore him. The opposite, in fact, happened and he got more stares and weird looks in the three piece suit than he did with a mohawk. His conclusion was that people could sense on some vibrational or subconscious level that the suit didn't "fit". I've noticed this in my own life. When I was in middle school I desperately tried to fit in and bought every item of clothing that was in style/fashionable and "the thing to wear". Given the time period, I ended up with a ridiculous collection of alligator shirts and OP shorts. Despite every attempt to fit in, I found myself fitting in less and less and becoming more and more isolated. The summer before I started 9th grade, I pretty much decided to give up trying to be like everyone else and developed my own sort of style that was part punk and part my own sort of concoction. After I did this, I ended up having significantly fewer problems with people in school and made more friends. Now, I'm on my 20 year reunion committee and everyone was actually really happy to see that I haven't changed all that much. I guess what I'm getting at here is that while gender is a part of it and definitely a piece of the puzzle, it's not all of it. I think there are multiple factors involved and, granted I don't know you and teaotter all that well, but I think part of the acceptance that the two of you receive has to do with a sense of self and your own unique sense of personal style (I'm talking on an internal level, not just a fashion level in this case) and comfort in that style. You both fit in your "skin" for lack of a better term. ![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/766330/186234) | | From: | xuenay |
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| Date: | August 13th, 2007 12:27 pm (UTC) |
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Thanks - a quite interesting post. This helped me and a friend of mine figure out why some people react to her in a negative fashion - physically she's very feminine and she dresses like it, but she tends to be quite assertive in conversation and debate (ironically, partially this style is because she's wanted to prove that she isn't an "ignorant little girl" - which she is not). I showed this post to her, and she agreed that it pretty much hits the spot.
When she accepts the challenge the other person has set by trying to "put her in her place", the other person often modifies his or her attitude towards her appropriately and stops treating her badly (and often even starts to treat her with due respect). That's the usual reaction, according to her. In some cases, though, it only makes matters worse, as the other person only reacts even more negatively. The person finally ends up not talking at all (if they're in a group situation where communication is necessary, she might talk to the other person, but the other always addresses the response to the whole group and not to her). | From: | ladydyke |
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| Date: | September 10th, 2007 03:37 am (UTC) |
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| | Gender and Social Reaction | (Link) |
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I am a male, but I often dress in women's fashions. I am often taken for a woman. I always get more civil treatment when dressed femme than when dressed in typical guy stuff. Why? I think the answer lies with me. When I am dressed as a guy, I act as a guy and other guys are ready to do their territorial guy thing with me. When I am dressed as a woman, I act as a woman to the extent that I am able. That means I put a smile on my face, I ditch the growl-ly voice routine, and anticipate the pleasure on interacting with others. My guess is that the fashions selected (femme or butch) don't really have much to do we the interactions we have with others. |
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